As you may be able to guess if you’ve read my previous columns, I’m a vocal person. I generally have no problem voicing my opinions on a wide variety of issues, and I’m usually perfectly willing to have a civil conversation with someone who holds the completely opposite view of what I believe. The majority of such conversations have ended with an “agree to disagree” solution that is generally predicable and entirely acceptable.
Some conversations, however, leave me with a bit of a bad taste in my mouth—namely the conversation about homosexuality. I’m going to be very frank here. I disagree with homosexuality. I am a fairly traditional Christian, and I believe the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin. There have been multiple times when I have brought this point of view into a conversation, and in several of these conversations, I have subsequently been regarded as someone who is intolerant, hateful or ignorant.
I know that this is not something that only happens to me. There are many people in this world who share the viewpoint that I do—that homosexuality is a sin as described in the Bible. Oftentimes, whenever someone expresses such an opinion, they are deemed bigots. This viewpoint is frequently seen as a radical, fundamentalist Christian perspective that goes against the trends of societal progression and equality for all.
This idea that anyone opposed to homosexuality is intolerant or ignorant is something that I cannot agree to disagree upon. Despite my disagreements with homosexuality, I refuse to be labeled as a bigot, as ignorant or as intolerant. Just because I do not agree with homosexuality doesn’t mean I have a problem with homosexual people. I have many homosexual friends and their homosexuality doesn’t bother me at all. In fact, in many of these friendships, they know my views on the subject and still know that I don’t mean it in a hateful way. For me, it’s kind of like Democrats and Republicans—they disagree with each other on some fundamental issues, but each side has friends on either side of the party line.
One could argue that these viewpoints (or other radical Christian perspectives) have been used for centuries to perpetuate hatred and acts of discrimination. In many cases, that has been far too true, and that saddens me. I hate the fact that the Bible has been incorrectly used as a means of perpetuating hatred and discrimination against homosexuals, similar to how it was used to justify the horrors of slavery. The Bible doesn’t ask me to discriminate, hate, punish or judge. The Bible asks that I treat everyone with the same love and respect I would expect to have shown to me. That—as best as I can—is what I do, whether I agree with a person or not. I hate it when someone is discriminated against because of homosexuality and I try to put a stop to it when I see it.
A lovely young relative of mine frequently uses “gay” as a synonym for “stupid” and I try to stop her when she does.
I know that I’m not going to convince anyone to change his or her views about homosexuality in this article, nor is that my intent. If you disagree with me for whatever reason, that’s fine. We’re OK to agree to disagree on that. Please don’t think less of me for my opinion and don’t think that it means I hate or discriminate. If you feel that GLBT persons should be accepted on the basis of equality, extend the same courtesy to me and allow me to equally have and express my own opinion.
Don’t disrespect those who share this view by labeling them as bigots. The majority of us who feel this way don’t harbor any hatred towards homosexuals. It is just a different and equally valid point of view.
The Bible outlines a number of sins, one of which is homosexuality. That is simply how I see it—a sin, one of many. While homosexuality is not one of my sins, I certainly have a variety of other sins, all of which are held equally in God’s eyes. I am no better or worse than any homosexual person. God loves us all despite our sins, and for anyone to say otherwise is what is truly hateful or ignorant.
I wish this article had a point. I guess the end of the year is the time for the weekly to take out its garbage.
Kavan’s only purpose in writing this is to further marginalize the already troubled GLBT community on campus. Trying to justify his opinion doesn’t make him look like any less of an asshole.
Maybe Kavan should stop picking and choosing what things in the Bible he wants to believe when its convenient for his agenda. Ironically, most gay-bashers harbor some doubts about their own sexuality, which makes them feel that they have to go on the attack. Perhaps Kavan needs to sit down at a counseling session to learn more about himself before he is allowed to continue on his inane rants.
My biggest question is why does Joel think that this article doesn’t have a point? Is it because it disagrees with him, and therefore shouldn’t be published in the weekly and considered trash?
Gustavus, and the commenter above me both talk about accepting differences in people. This does not just mean differences in sexuality, but also differences in belief, and in ideals. It’s about mental diversity as well. To condemn Kavan’s letter for attacking people, and than to personally attack Kavan, rather than his argument is a hypocritical move.
While I disagree with Kavan’s point, I do feel he should be allowed to speak his mind, that’s what makes Gustavus a good campus, it’s what makes us a diverse community. We allow everyone to speak their mind no matter what their gender, age, sexuality, or political or religious beliefs. If the Gustavus community truly wants to be accepting, they need to start accepting those with different political beliefs, and begin to debate the issues, and do not attack the author.
For those of us, (I should admit I am a gay man), who believe that being gay is part of my genetic make-up, this article does lack a point of view. Instead of homosexuality, insert the word, “left-handedness” and you’ll see what I mean. How do you “disagree” with being left-handed? As for church or bible reference, for many centuries, “left” was commonly used to be a sign of Satan. Right-hand meant “God-like” and left meant the opposite. I think it is great to point out that acceptance means being accepting of all points of view, just be a little clearer about your own views first.
As a member of the GLBT community, I would like to voice my personal appreciation for Kavan’s article. Not only was his point clear, concise and reasonably stated, I thought he put a face on a perspective the issue often lacks. All too often we are eager to label Republicans as Right-Wing Evangelists or Bible-Thumping Homophobes. Joel’s ad-hominem argument and childish name-calling only serve to demonstrate the dangers of stereotyping and broad-brush-stroking. Kavan’s willingness to personally disagree with a lifestyle without allowing it to interfere with personal friendships and judgments of others ought to be commended, not marginalized. Way to go, Rogness.
Lifestyle, Maggie? You should know better.
All,
Let’s be objective. There are two situations I see from the comments above. We can either: 1. Talk about what is socially acceptable (politically correct); or 2. Talk about what is Truth.
I’m going to ignore #1 for the most part because when #1 gets messed in with #2, this conversation would be endless and frankly, #1’s importance is nothing in light of #2. Also, #1 changes throughout time if you’ve read your history but #2 has always been the same. So don’t read any of my comments further if you are not truly interested in #2, cause that’s all I will write about before talking about homosexuality. I will briefly give insight into #1, but very briefly.
Truth is NOT relative. Offended yet? But “What’s true for you is true for you and what’s true for me is true for me,” right? There’s one little problem with that statement and it begins with the word “for”. Catch my drift? We can agree that we believe different things about Truth, but doing so doesn’t change what Truth is.
For example, if a dog is a mouse to me and dog is a cat to you then you and I both have a different idea of what we believe a dog is, which some people are okay with, but it doesn’t change the fact that the dog is still a dog. The dog cannot decide for itself to be a mouse or a cat. The point is that Truth doesn’t change, nor can it. So why try to change it? Because that’s all we do when we try to define it “for” ourselves.
As much as I may want and believe my Dodge Stratus to be a Ferrari, neither will it appear that way nor perform that way. And you probably won’t see it to be a Ferrari either, but regardless, I’m only fooling myself if I go around thinking and believing it actually is a Ferrari. I don’t know about you, but I’d prefer not to live out my life being ignorant and apathetic.
If I said “my truth” is different than “your truth”, then truth can’t BE Truth because your “definition of truth” is different than mine. You might as well replace the word “truth” with the word “belief”, because that’s what you mean by “truth” when you say that. But, you want to respect another’s beliefs, right?
Cool. I can respect a person who believes something other than what I believe in the sense that I can and should treat them fairly and with a kind and gentle heart as I would anyone else and I won’t force them to believe what I believe. But don’t pretend that Truth is relative or that I have to “respect” a choice or approve of something that contradicts Truth. It takes a lot to earn respect and I believe it loses its value if freely given to everyone for every reason.
I have the right to disagree with what one chooses to be a lifestyle, or in other words, style (preference) of living life. Offended? Truth offends, but only that which is not true. This is why the innocent do not flee when accused. Take a breath. I’m not trying to antagonize, but rather make you think. Just read on.
Here comes the next issue: “I didn’t choose to be gay. I was born that way.” Let me ask you some questions. How do you know? Was it a feeling? A conviction? When did you first feel it or think it? At what age? 1? 3? 12? (Personally I couldn’t pinpoint a single thought I had before age 5 as a life defining decision. Study of biology demonstrates that the human brain isn’t even developed enough at that age to make such a decision.) Could it be possible that through circumstances out of your control you gained a tendency toward it? Could it be possible that it became “natural” just like anything practiced repeatedly that becomes a habit that feels natural without having to think about it? Could it be possible that you’re now sick and tired of people giving you crap about it?
The Bible says that ANY kind of sexual immorality outside marraige is wrong, whether between man and woman, woman and woman, or man and man (Corinthians). It says to flee sexual immorality, regardless of gender. It says that sex is a gift for married couples. The Bible also clearly defines marraige as between a man and a woman only.
Given those statements, can you understand why Christians don’t find homosexuality something they “respect” but can still treat homosexuals “with respect”? They are separate. Can you understand why homosexual marraige doesn’t fit the bill given the previous statements? Can you understand why Christians wouldn’t want to put their stamp of approval (in the form of a vote) on the opposite of what God has already defined for them? This is why you will find that a true follower of Christ will hate sin but love you. This is not hypocrisy because they are hating evil and loving good. They hate the sin in themselves too! So why such an issue with homosexuality? People just don’t go public that they murder or that they are a liar or that they are a kleptomaniac. They don’t march in the streets claiming their rights are being infringed upon because they choose to lie to people OR because they believe they were born to lie to people (if that’s how you still see it).
Now back to hypocrisy. It is hypocrisy for a Christian to say they no longer are capable of sinning or that they no longer sin. They may struggle not to, but they still do. They may hate that they do (to varying degrees based on the person and their faith). They may even sometimes choose to sin, but hate that choice later. Why? We are not all basically good people. We are basically (fundamentally) evil, all of us, ever since the first sin. We all have a natural tendency to sin (for some the main struggle may be homosexuality, for some its lust, for others its theft). God’s standards of perfection are more than we could create for ourselves and we can’t ever reach perfection or live up to them. That’s why we all need grace. That’s why Christians don’t like to see others, including themselves, living in sin and (as they see it) choosing it as a lifestyle. It’s the natural human tendency to judge and that is also a sin. It is fair to call out Christians for having a double standard if they believe homosexuality is wrong but premarital sex isn’t, and in fact, I would encourage you to do so–gently, as you’d want others to do for you in a similar situation. We all have a sin that is “easy” for us.
Ever seen a Christian on their high horse, ranting and raving for you to repent now or die and burn in hell and then judging you too? Two things could be happening: 1. They are ignorant of their own sin and feel it their right to tell you about yours (which is hypocritical) and; 2. They feel it vitally important to give a warning about the consequences of sin. Here, #1 is sin and it’s wrong and #2 comes with good intentions but is also a sin in that it is not the humble and gentle way to go about it like the Bible commands. Nice picture they paint, huh? Christians get upset with these people too, for both sins.
Now all of this should be taken in context, as a previous comment from another suggests, so I encourage those who wish to respond to find a Bible with an index and read the entire chapters where homosexuality, marraige, flesh, truth, forgiveness, and sin are mentioned, for example, as a start. These concepts are so intertwined that to do anything but understand their relationship together, each in their own context and also as one relates to the other, would not provide sufficient evidence to make an argument that would satisfy anyone but a fool (see Proverbs Chapters 2-3).
My point is this: As far as Truth is concerned, Christians believe that God is Truth, that Truth is absolute, that Jesus gave testiment to the Truth through his life, death, and resurrection. We are saved through grace, the price paid by Jesus, through the Truth. Truth is therefore pretty darn important to know, to understand, and to seek. It will guide all decisions and be the standard by which God measures everything. Every sin, at its root, comes from the belief in a lie.
You may have heard before that “What is socially acceptable is not always right and what is right is not always socially acceptable.” I believe this statement accurately reflects the heart of the conflict when comparing the Bible to society and politics today.
It would be nice if the “hate the sin, love the sinner” rhetoric stuck with you people. Unfortunately people all over the world cannot separate the “sin” from the sinner.
In February, 15 year old Lawrence King was murdered in his California school because he identified as gay. His 14 year old killer is to be tried as an adult, and will be persecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Though I am apauled by his actions, I can not place complete blame on a 14 year old boy for taking a gun and shooting Larry in the head in front of all of their classmates. My question is where did this boy get the idea in his head that this was his best course of action?
It’s people like you that reduce gays and lesbians to nothing but walking lists of abominable acts. Who is easier to bash in the brains of, a “feces eating homosexual” (Westburro Baptist Church), or a unique individual with hopes, dreams, talent and a soul…? So, while you personally may have never killed a queer… I hold you and all of you who spead your gospel of hatred personally responsible for every death.
One of the hugest failures of the Christian church today is the abuse of the phrase “hate the sin, love the sinner” that Tony has mentioned.
This might just be me, but a gay person does not look at him or herself and say “this is me, and this is the part of me that is gay over here in the corner”. No, a person who is gay (openly or otherwise) looks at themselves and thinks “this is me” and their “gayness” is as integrated into their person as “I have brown hair”.
It’s easy for us to think we can say that someone is not wrong, just this one certain part of them is wrong, but that’s impossible. It is like a thread in a weaved garment, you can’t separate that thread from all the others and say that the garment remains the same. No, it is an integral part of that garment, just like all the other threads.
Jesus Christ says in Matthew 5:30 “And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.”
A hand is an integrated part of your body. When people lose limbs because of accidents or disease, they often talk of how they feel as though that limb is still there, and they still make actions as if that limb was still there. It is obvious that a part of you is missing.
A homosexual who wishes to denounce his homosexuality is like a person who asks God to cut off their hand. It’s your hand!!! That is no easy decision, and frankly, no one in the world could convince me to cut off my hand. It would be a decision only I could make. And i would only decide to do something like cut off my hand in the direst of situations. You hear of situations where people have limbs pinned down by accidents and their only chance for life is to cut off that limb. That is the only situation I can see myself giving up a limb.
What I think is the case with all sin, not just homosexuality, is realizing that we ARE in the situation where our life is at stake. That is when someone can make a decision to cut off something that is so integrally a part of them. I am not able to convince anyone that they are in such a situation. Only God can reveal that to someone.
My hope is for the Church to realize that they are asking a body of people to cut off their own hands. This is not something you do lightly. This is not simple, and its not something you can sum up in “love the sinner hate the sin” because to that person you are saying “love who you are, but hate the things that make up who you are”
I feel like i’m a bit all over the place, but hopefully people will understand what I’m getting at…
Jesus said nothing about homosexuality, but explicitly condemned divorce on several occasions. One wonders when — and why — the focus of the Terminally Concerned shifted so radically from one to the other. Let’s try to keep some perspective on those motes and beams, folks!
Good Day,
This was a great weekly.blog.gustavus.edu forum. I needed to find something for my Homework and This site helped me out so much! Thanx alot!!!!